There is a thread in the debate form about this. Basically i consider it a form of murder. It wont destroy the world and in fact it might help it since there are tooo many humans. If we can determine when a fetus is able to think, we might be able to set a time limit during which abortion is ethical. And constantines right. It does just encourage irresponsible sex to a certain extent and when a woman doesnt think, she gets a way to not have to pay for that, but a man doesnt anyway, hel have to support the child no matter what so abortion should be done away with altogether.

[quote:552bff3afc=\"sithlord\"]There is a thread in the debate form about this. Basically i consider it a form of murder. It wont destroy the world and in fact it might help it since there are tooo many humans. If we can determine when a fetus is able to think, we might be able to set a time limit during which abortion is ethical. And constantines right. It does just encourage irresponsible sex to a certain extent and when a woman doesnt think, she gets a way to not have to pay for that, but a man doesnt anyway, hel have to support the child no matter what so abortion should be done away with altogether.[/quote:552bff3afc]

Ok image this:
* you have a nice girlfriend and she takes the pill
* so you're like fucking her everyday, because like... she's hot :D
* Oho the pill didn't work! (that actually happens!)
* Now you're fifteen and you've got a sixteen (yeah your a lucky son of a bitch) year old pregnant (well not so lucky...) girlfriend.

In my country, she would just get an abortion... it would suck, but at least it didn't destroy both your lives.
In your country, everyone looks at you like your an idiot for having unsafe sex (\"I didn't seriously! She was on the pill and ... forget it\") and you better start working to support your child too!

Now what's better?

sithlord: very opinionated for one so young...

Abortion is ok, and it isnt murder. Its only you prudy right wing conservative born again christians who seem to think so.



There are reason why people are not allowed to vote till they are 18, and you are a good example of why! (dont you younguns get pissy with me, cause that remark was only directed at our entertainingly misguided sithlord 8) ) You have no idea what you are talking about, none of your sums make sence. Only a very small top percential of working people earn 120,000$/yr. Most parents wouldnt and couldnt afford to look after their grandchildren, especially when there children are only 14

So again Abortion is ok, up till a certain week, after that it could be deemed as murder. But it is way better to abort that have 14/15 year old parents (in most cases)...


:omfg:
Are you serious? Is this part of our arguement? Men (and you are not one yet) have a thing called 'sex drive' which is very very strong in thier late teens 20/30's. Unless you want to be the pope then most men act on this sex drive! We are not dogs or cats who only fuck when on heat, but we (humans) enjoy sex, and are the only mamals/animals who actually have sex for pleasure and not just to reproduce, like cats and dogs!

Sorry man, I dont me to always cut the legs from under you, but you dont orbit the same planet as everyone else here it seems...

EDIT: THIS HAS GONE WAY OF TOPIC AND SHOULD PROBABLY BE SPLIT INTO TWO TOPICS

Ok well, i could grow to agree with that if there was substantial proof, that the baby ABSOLUTELY is not self aware until before that date.



As for $120,000 per year, thats the total between both of my parents not just one. So yes its still a minority of people that make $60,000 per year, but there are alot more ppl that make 60 grand than those who make 120 grand. Plus that raises 2 kids so it really only requires $30,000 each, a near average salary. And my parents buy me lots of shit, so to \"just get by\" as a parent, i would projec it at a yearly income of $15,000 for each parent. Teenagers woudlnt make this much likely, but theyd be able to get welfare hopefully with a left wing government and theyd still live with their parents.



Conservatives are my mortal enemies lol. And im completely atheist... if i were to be religious, christianity would not be my choice seeing as the catholic church has killed millions upon millions of people \"in the name of god\". It would be something peaceful like hinduism or bhudism or a reformed version of something... bla im getting off topic even more than this already is.



Ur right, i shouldnt have compared us to other mammals, but if i had a girlfriend and she had JUST TAKEN the pill, i wouldnt try to get lucky that night. It also gets my heart racing too much to get to sleep... id do it probably every second day. And even if she were on the pill id wear a condom. Yea i know it could still happen. Thats when id start working my ass off. Id like to have kids eventually anyway. Id prefer that method to be from adoption cause the world is overpopulated but whatever works, even if it just barely works.



I fully agree with that but i doubt i will change very much in 2.1 years. Ya most ppl in these dynamic years would change but i do know that im weird. 90% of ppl my age would not be good voters and would screw up the country, unless they were too lazy to vote, which statistics show, ppl between 18 and 24 even, for the most part, are. The only underage voters allowed should be those 16 and 17 yearolds in the army, because the leader in power greatly affects them.



Wow i didnt know that. I guess the Canadian way is better. What i meant was that we should outlaw it like the US, even though our government is liberal atm and hopefully it wont result in such violence.

Ever heard of the poilitical compass? Here is one below.

.............Totalitarianism..................
......................|.............................
Left Wing..___|____..Right Wing
......................|..............................
......................|.............................
................Anarchy.........................

People normally associate left wing ideologies to veer slightly towards anarchy and right wing ideologies to veer slightly towards totalitarianism. One axis has to do with taxes, goods and services and stuff, the other has to do with the strictness of laws.

So there are actually four general quadrants of a government not two. Ppl who know me may know that i have little faith in humanity since the world is so skrewed up except for us few lucky ones isolated in well off countries. Humans usually dont do the right thing of their own volition so we need systems in place involving rigid laws with as few, grey areas requiring human discression, as possible. Thats why i actually want a Left Wing Totalitarian type of government.

So in short, u have made it clear that right wing totalitarianism like that in the states, doesnt work. I already knew that; i thought it would work in settling the abortion debate; but i trust that it doesnt work in that way either. Left wing is what i like because we need to protect the Earth, and encouraging corporations to keep capitaliing sucks and yea. But anarchist views of this instil \"trust\" in ppl which we shouldnt have. So left wing totalitarianism is the way to go, and once we figure that out, im sure things will be a whole lot better and abortion will be no exception.[/quote]

[url=http://mininova.org/get/49944]22 days the hart begins to beat[/url] [27:31-27:39]
Not a real hart just a tube which still needs to form to a 4 chamber hart. And still no spinal cord or any braincell. This explains the 21 days/3 weeks. But it says nothing about brain cells.

For a better understanding over what develops in what time:
[url=http://mininova.org/get/40614]NGC In The Womb[/url]
I only saw that one on tv, therefore I don't have any dates.
Nor do scientist have enough understanding of the brain to pinpoint the exact date at which age a baby is self aware.

Legal disclaimer:
It might be illegal in your country to download these. In most countries this is the same as taping a tv show and watching it at a later date.
Both these documentaries might be worth buying, but I couldn't find proper links to vhs/dvds.

Well that is why i dont agree with abortion. Yes thank you for posting those.

Yes politics is more complicated than that, but it shouldnt be. In theory this stuff should work and i thought left wing totalitarianish (not necessarily communist) governments had worked before but according to that scatter plot and the obvious example of North Korea, they havnt.

That is because of corruption. True communism doesnt concentrate wealth in a select few, thats quite the opposite. I once made a system that would be relatively free of this. It would completely interfere with international trade and such, so it would have to be in a country with enough natural resources to make it completely self sufficient.

I cant remember it all, but essentially the government (being no person, just an idea really) has infinite money. All money is virtual of course and has no physical representation. Workers dont have infinite money however, because it is only given out as an insentive to work. The government can fund things all they want without giving someone too much money and there will also be no poverty. Everyone will have just enough money to be happy yet still want to work more. Most people would make the same amount of money because those with easy jobs work long hours and those with hard jobs get the most time off.

Im sure you would agree that this is a form of communism, subject to all of the flaws that have happened in the past. Thats where it intertwines with principles of facism. If the employees of the government try to take the infinite money owned by the government, well they cant because of computerized security that protects against improper allocation of funds.

Inflation will not occur because all jobs and stores will be controlled by the government. So the owner of a convenient store must register with the government so that they cannot obtain a monopoly on anything and take the social equallity away from the people. Those trying to cheat the system will be policed heavily. There will be no leader either so that no one can be distorted by power. There will only be a constitution that cannot be changed and if they were to change it anyway, ppl living there would be outraged because the original system would work perfectly.

Ok thats WAAY of topic but its my idea of what the future should be like. A left wing totalitarian government, that would have strict laws and security measures, yet a government able to make all people equal and protect the environment. (The doc i had outlined tons of advancements like satellites in heliosynchrous orbits microwaving huge amounts of solar energy to the Earth, and security cameras that can see in MRI to monitor thought to some extent).

I remember it took me a long time but it was pretty foolproof. With that kind of a government, wed have the best of both worlds... IMO that would include no abortion but basically every other feature of a left wing government plus more that no one has been daring enough to try and not become corrupt by it. When i can vote, the party for which i will vote will be one that allows abortion because currently, thats their only piece of legislation that i dont like. They are still way better than right wing, religious ignorami.

You have nothing to agree/disagree on before you know all the facts.

As for the communism or marcism thing, the idea might sound great but the reality is different. Looking at the history of every communistic country should show you that. And look at what China is doing...


I get a feeling I'm doing your homework here, if you want a good discussion rather than people claiming you are wrong. To get a more constructive argument, look some stuff up on the internet and come up with some arguments supported by references.

actually i was wanting an example of a communistic goverment that worked! There isnt any....

Maybe you have done research, (anyone can read up on marcism) but ideaology and practise arent a mirror of each other. Go ask an east german, or a Pole, or even an Hungarian...

Wait guys, I think you have it all wrong! I completely agree with sithlord. As a matter of fact I cannot wait for the next presidential election to vote for him. Then he will build his left wing totalitarian empire where there is no corruption, nobody ever steals, everybody is satisfied with what they have and everybody lives happily ever after.

You’ll see he will protect out melting poles by putting a ban on use of fossil fuels and under his reign government will start a massive funding of alternative fuels research and other advanced technologies.

Also, he will protect our rivers against irresponsible corporations that dump toxic materials into our drinking water. In fact he will go after them until they close every single one of their plans. Of course, thousands of people will loose their jobs, kids will loose their health insurance because parents lost jobs and they will start dying because they have been drinking contaminated water for years.

But wait, sithlord comes to the rescue! He will fund the social plan that provides every man, woman and child with free health services and free education. Even more, he will make sure to have enough funds for every member of society never to be without basic needs and to be guaranteed a happy lifestyle. If only sithlord hadn’t spent so much money on technology research maybe then he could fund his social plan!

But wait (again)! This is a left wing totalitarian society so all that sithlord has to do is tax those who are not on his social plan a bit more (and than some!) and his programs will be fully funded! Even better, instead of heavily taxing individuals he will tax large corporations because, after all, this is a left wing party and we should all share the goods. Now if only he didn’t put all those corporations out of business by closing their plans in the first place there would be no problem!

But wait (for the third time)! The money is no object because there is an infinite amount of it! Or it grows on trees! And, to top all that, here comes Santa Claus flying on deer, carrying a magic wand that he borrowed from a good fairy next door! We are saved! Our problems are solved! All hail sithlord (and Santa and good fairy )!

(the crowd goes wild…..)

Now, the point of the story (besides me killing time at work) is to show that those who have not experienced communism should not try to defend it. Those who have not experienced reign of Saddam (or someone similar) should not defend totalitarian government. But most of all those who fiercely discuss sexual habits and their consequences should wait to get laid first! :-)

hahahaha djidji that was one of the funniest post I read for a long time!

Congratz dj that was good. But seriously, if there is infinite money, then i could fund all of those programs indefinitely as long as i did not give any one person enough to get them to stop working.

Toby raises a good point too, its human nature to gain power. That would be the collapse of my ideology in some shape or form but if a country could ever successfuly start that type of government i think it would last quite awhile provided other countries didnt invade it due to its extreme ideas.

So its now clear that cuba is the closest example to this that has ever worked. I never knew how misunderstood it is, thx progster. I hope it stays the same in its next leader... how long has castro been in there... 56 years i believe. Well dont try to blame me for trying its a good idea and the greater technology becomes the better, because technology is one thing that wont try to gain power... as far as we know. If all humans could somehow be completely equal in all respects without a danger of there being too much or too litle money at any time, at least in the hands of citizens then thats a framework for a perfect world.

So id like to hear some other ideas now cause thats what humanity needs atm.. the more we cling to the ways of today's governments the longer we will spend in this downward spiral we are in. I did my best, u can use some of my ideas but make them better. Ur all obviously older and more learned than me... plz dont be so bent on proving me wrong that u run out of ideas urself.

--> Or better yet?! Lets get back to talking about the politics of abortion!!1shiftone1!

It's not that amazing (he did the same thing on the abortion thread).

Those who can be convinced to take on another (political) religion will just as easily be converted to the next.

Those that can not be convinced will twist your words and arguments until it fits their own belief.

I used to think that these types of discussions where therefore pointless. But do realise that you can actually learn from them (if you want to).

You can never win a discussion everybody loses something in the end.
It's best that way. Don't think you can win on arguments either just because your run out of arguments doesn't mean you don't have a valid point.

If left wing voters vote for a left wing party they could lose everything to a right wing party. Same applies to a right wing party. And all the extremes of that political compass. So in the end you'll end up supporting a center party which isn't great (lots of concessions) but better than the alternative.

Feel free to continue this communism conversation in a new thread, since I already gained a new interest in the historie of Mexico (both by watching the thread and trying to come up with some arguments).

Sithlord come up with some arguments on how to create such an (in your opinion) ideal system. So I can point out some flaws.